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Martin's avatar

Thanks Thad and Jim for restacking it

Great post hitting the necessity to read scripture in context and not run away from difficult issues raised by it.

Here is one difficult question for those who believe we have an immortal soul, which is a term never used in scripture. Jesus told us:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. "(Matt 10:28)

As the soul can be destroyed by God then it is obviously not immortal.

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Thad M Brown's avatar

Thank you for engaging thoughtfully with this important theological distinction.

You raise an important textual observation about Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

The term "destroy" (Greek: apollymi) here doesn't mean annihilation or cessation of existence, but rather eternal ruin and loss. Throughout Scripture, this same word describes things that are ruined for their intended purpose but continue to exist.

Consider how Jesus uses apollymi elsewhere:

Luke 15:4, 6: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them..." The sheep still exists; it's lost, not annihilated.

Matthew 9:17: "...and the skins are destroyed," speaking of wineskins. They're ruined for use, not eliminated from existence.

The biblical testimony consistently presents the soul's eternal duration. Daniel 12:2 declares: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Most definitively, Jesus Himself describes hell's eternal nature in Matthew 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The same Greek word (aionios) describes both states' duration.

The soul's "destruction" in hell is its eternal separation from God's life-giving presence; a perpetual state of ruin, not extinction. As R.C. Sproul noted, hell is the soul existing in eternal dying, never achieving the relief of non-existence.

An especially clear example comes from Revelation 20:10: "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

This is particularly significant because the beast and false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20, yet here in chapter 20, after the thousand year Millenium, they're still there; not annihilated, but existing in torment.

Even more decisive is Revelation 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Notice the present continuous nature; "they have no rest, day or night." You cannot experience unrest if you don't exist. The phrase "forever and ever" (Greek: eis aious aionon) is the strongest expression of eternality in Greek, the same phrase used for God's eternal reign in Revelation 11:15.

You're absolutely right that Scripture never uses the phrase "immortal soul" yet from the context of a number of verses, it is clear that the soul is perpetual, an eternal duration, whether in glory or judgment.

I appreciate your comment.

Thad

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Martin's avatar

Thanks Thad

I will get back to you when I have had time to consider your comment.

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Debi Lutman's avatar

Thanks for expounding the understanding. I’ve recently started an inductive approach to studying God’s Word. I’m a slow learner but God is good and had already revealed much by His Holy Spirit, but now that which is the meat, must be met with my seeking Him diligently as I sense His coming. Not just the feel good verses.

I feel those alone would actually make the gospel seem irrelevant if you don’t think you have a need for salvation. And they are plastered at the beginning of the wide path, remembering Satan used scripture in the temptation of Christ.

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Martin's avatar

Thanks Thad

Your article on how to read the Bible was great, it was blunt and honest, I have therefore written in the same manner in reply to your answer to my statement on the fallacy of the immortal soul doctrine. Please take the time to read what I have written below, for if what I have said is true then you need to take some of your own advice about honestly evaluating scripture.

My article on the immortality of the soul and hell fire expands on this topic in some depth. https://friendswithgod.substack.com/i/160914036/immortality-of-the-soul-and-hell-fire

Your article on how to read the Bible was great, but you have fallen into the trap that you warned others about. You said “You’ve created a comfortable subset that aligns with your predetermined theology. You approach Scripture with preconceived conclusions, seeking divine validation of decisions you've already made.”

Yet that is what you have done, for you have distorted the clear scripture of God’s word to prove your own doctrine of your word.

We have nothing immortal in us, otherwise we would not need to put on immortality:

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

(1Co 15:53-54)

I think you have taken your own concept of an “eternal soul” and made it fit the scriptures, rather than reading what is clearly and obviously the actual intent and purpose of Matthew 10:28:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

The entire point of this verse is not just what is said in the second sentence which you concentrated on in response, but the first also, with which it is contrasted.

What is the point of saying “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.” If the second sentence did not mean that God could also “kill the soul”?

The use of the term “destroy” in the second sentence uses the word “apollumi”, which has not just one meaning as you propose, but, as with many Greek words, has a range of meanings, as Strong’s Greek Dictionary tells us, which I am sure you know:

apollumi : to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It is used in all these applications throughout scripture, but nowhere does it say it means, as you claim “things that are ruined for their intended purpose, but continue to exist” – that is your extrapolation of a very clear word.

When something is destroyed obviously there may be some residue, but the thing is now rubbish and dead and useless- it is not just a bit damaged. If that were the case then what is the point of a “ruined soul”, as you would have us believe is the intent of this verse? Also, what would be the purpose of a “ruined body” in hell? Yet no one would argue that a body is not dead when it dies, for clearly it does not continue to live in hell. Yet people will argue that the soul continues to live in hell, but there is simply no evidence to support that supposition.

You also quoted the word “aionios” which is translated “eternal” in Matthew 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." While it may appear that the punishment is to go on and on (which people that is what is supposed to happen in hell), but the same word “aionios” is used for the eternal fire that Sodom and Gomorrah experienced as an example to others:

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal (aionios) fire. (Jude 1:7)

Yet the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah has long since gone out. Self-evidently this was not a fire that lasted forever, although it is called an “eternal fire”, but a fire that could not be put out until it had done it’s work completely.

This is the same concept of “eternal” mentioned many times when talking about worms: Where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:42- 48, Matt 18:7-9) Is Christ talking about eternal worms that eat your body forever?

You claim: “The soul's "destruction" in hell is its eternal separation from God's life-giving presence; a perpetual state of ruin, not extinction. As R.C. Sproul noted, hell is the soul existing in eternal dying, never achieving the relief of non-existence.”

Yet such as claim is not supported by scripture, unless you restrict the meanings of the words to fit your own ideals. You must resort to some human statement of an “eternal soul” as no such concept is supported by the Word of God.

You also said:

“An especially clear example comes from Revelation 20:10: "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Yet this verse certainly does not say that the beast and the false prophet were still there as you blatantly state, for as you would know when it says “where the beast and the false prophet were” the word “were” is not in the original and it could just as likely mean these two were cast into the fire and were killed and destroyed along with their soul as Christ said in Matthew 10:28

There is nothing in this verse to imply as you said “after the thousand year Millenium, they're still there; not annihilated, but existing in torment.”- the verse says nothing about their physical or spiritual state of being, the only thing that is said is that it is the same flame that the devil is being thrown into.

This is the same fire that Jesus spoke about when he said “.. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matt 25:41)

This is the fire that will destroy both the body and the soul in Matthew 10:28.

Yet even this everlasting fire will not go on forever and ever, unlike the Kingdom of God which will last eternally. For we see that there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; …(Rev 21:1)

God will destroy his former creation and make a new one: Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Rev 21:5)

Satan and hell and death itself will all be destroyed, along with all the souls of those men thrown into the lake of fire:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:14-15)

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Thad M Brown's avatar

Your view seems to be that the wicked are ultimately destroyed — body and soul — rather than consciously punished forever. You argue that “eternal fire” means a fire that burns until its work is done, that apollumi (“destroy”) means complete extinction, and that only the saved “put on” immortality.

But that interpretation misses three key truths:

“Eternal” means equal duration for both life and punishment.

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus used the same word (aionios) for “eternal life” and “eternal punishment.” If one lasts forever, so does the other. You can’t shorten one without shortening the other.

Justice demands proportional punishment, not equal extinction.

If everyone in hell simply ceases to exist, then the cruel tyrant and the kind unbeliever suffer the same end — a moment of destruction. That would make God unjust, not just. Justice measures guilt and consequence; it doesn’t erase the difference between Hitler and the unpretentious atheist.

Destruction in Scripture means ruin, not disappearance.

Lost sheep, ruined wineskins, and the devil in Revelation 20:10 all still exist after being “destroyed.” The Bible’s language describes ongoing ruin — the soul separated from God’s life forever — not annihilation.

Hell isn’t the end of existence; it’s the endless consequence of rejecting the only Source of life. A just God does not level all sin to the same outcome — He judges with perfect proportion and eternal seriousness.

Thank you for your opinion.

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Martin's avatar

Thanks Thad for taking the time for reading and commenting on what I have written.

I don't quite understand why you think burning in Hell forever for "Hitler and the unpretentious atheist" is more just and loving and kind on God's part than both being extinguished forever?

How does Hitler get a better and more just proportion of Hell than the unpretentious atheist?

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Robin L's avatar

When the Lord saved me in 2018, my call to salvation was in the form of an overpowering need to know God as He has revealed Himself. Back story: I always loved God, but didn't know Jesus as my Lord, and was totally ignorant of the Holy Spirit. Still, God put an impossible to ignore urge in me to know Him as He has revealed Himself.

When I was saved, I was overcome with grief over my sin, and a profound gratitude for His grace and I began pursuing Him with all my heart (Again, this is nothing to my credit but to His alone.) Reading scripture fulfills in me the need He placed in me.

Sure, the hard sayings require wrestling to understand what He wants us to understand about Him. But a God who thinks like me, and acts like me, is NO GOD at all.

At my church I lead a small group of women in biblical study. Every meeting I urge them to read the entire Bible, front to back, starting in Genesis. Read ALL of it through, and when finished start over again. Read the Bible until you love reading the Bible, and ask God to reveal Himself to you, to conform you to Jesus Christ, to sanctify you with His word and do all of for HIS glory. These are all things that are 100% in alignment with what He wants for us as His children. And when we pray for what HE wants, He promises to give it to us in abundance.

In my opinion, a Christian without true pursuit of the Holy, as revealed in scripture, is a danger to himself and to the body of Christ.

Maranatha!

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Thad M Brown's avatar

Great points, Robin. I really appreciate you sharing this. Both the Old and New Testaments make clear that a sign of a true believer is a love of His word.

1 Peter 2:2 commands: "Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk of the word, that by it you may grow up into salvation." This isn't a suggestion; it's describing the natural appetite of the truly born again.

Psalm 1:2 describes the blessed man: "but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night." Delight, not duty, characterizes the believer's relationship with Scripture.

Again, I appreciate your comment.

Thad

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Robin L's avatar

Thank you Thad,and I really appreciate the article you've shared. You have said things here that every Believer must know.

When a Christian is saturated in the Word, we know when error is being spoken and taught. If we all were Bereans, corrupted churches and false teachers would be stopped in their tracks and run out of our congregations.

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Debi Lutman's avatar

Amen. Thank you. Will be sharing your response with my granddaughter. Who I believe leans toward prosperity preaching. What God has revealed about Himself, and the proof scripture interprets scripture, shows His Awesomeness to me, each time I restart reading the whole Bible, and He shows me more. What Love

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Robin L's avatar

I pray that your granddaughter will be freed from the prosperity gospel lies that are being fed to us by false teachers. The closer I am to being home with the Lord, by death or Rapture, the more absurd the world’s promises of wealth, and health, become. It’s the same as putting down a fur lining in a cat’s litter box. Gross.

Nothing in this world can substitute for the glories waiting for us in Heaven, being sinless and in the presence of Jesus. See you in glory Debi!

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Debi Lutman's avatar

Yes 🙌 The truths is the Bible get clearer and clearer as the Day Approaches.

Fur instead of litter. Pretty good analogy 👍

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Debi Lutman's avatar

Oops fur lining. Still gross

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The Watchman's avatar

Great points, linking today @https://nothingnewunderthesun2016.com/

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Abigail Starke's avatar

Yes. 😥🙏🏻

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