So as a long time mature "elder" Christian I am familiar with all of this.. byway of Presbyterian evangelical church many years ago: leaning toward the predestination position which is supported biblically.. over and over. I will restack.. I couldn't get the PDF's but that is Ok. Have a blessed Sunday. I think there is a lot of truth .. in your excellent analysis those the verses that I was trained in while taking Evangelism Explosion by James Kennedy (Coral Ridge ministries in Florida) for six years, the foundational basis of how evangelicals and those eat the meat... having ears to hear and eyes to see.:) Praise the Lord.
I've always respected James Kennedy, his Evangelism Explosion, and Coral Ridge Presbyterian church in Coral Ridge, Florida. Thank you for your comment.
Obviously, we disagree, yet I see no verses justifying your position.
According to scripture, God does indeed choose Individuals.
Ephesians 1:4 – "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Romans 9:11-13 – "Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls—she was told...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'"
Jacob and Esau. Individuals.
Many Are Called, Few Are Chosen
Matthew 22:14 – "For many are called, but few are chosen."
If everyone is drawn equally and free will decides, then everyone should be chosen.
Yet Jesus says only a few are chosen.
Your claim of arrogance is backward.
If I chose God, I get credit for my salvation.
If God chose me, He gets all the glory.
1 Corinthians 4:7 – "What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"
Claiming my decision made the difference between me and the person who rejected Christ—that's arrogance.
Scripture Settles It
John 1:13 – Believers "were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Romans 9:16 – "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
John 6:37 – "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me."
Romans 9:15-16 – "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
The answer to all three questions is the same.
His sovereign will. His good pleasure. His glory.
Not anything in us.
Ephesians 1:5 – "He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will."
Then why is it written, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life”? (Jn. 3:16)
Why is it also written that God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance? (2 Pet. 3:9)?
What love and mercy is there in predestinating some to salvation and not others?
What justice is there in casting multitudes into eternal damnation without giving them opportunity to first repent?
What would be the point of even sharing the Gospel with anyone at all if it has already been decided who will be saved and who won’t be?
I appreciate these questions; they reflect genuine concerns about God's justice and character.
Let me address each one directly from Scripture.
The Problem Most Miss
Man is already condemned. John 3:18 declares, "Whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." The issue isn't God condemning innocent people; it's God mercifully saving some from the condemnation all deserve.
Man is unwilling to come to Christ.
John 5:40 states, "Yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life." Romans 3:11 affirms, "No one seeks for God." The natural man doesn't want Christ. He's dead in sin, enslaved to Satan, and hostile to God.
Answering Your Specific Questions
John 3:16 and "whosoever believes":
Yes, whoever believes will be saved. But who can believe? John 6:44 answers: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." The invitation is genuine, but apart from God's effectual call, no one accepts it.
2 Peter 3:9 and God's willingness:
Context matters. Peter writes to "those who have obtained a faith" (2 Peter 1:1)—the elect. 2 Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise to you, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." God is patient toward the elect ("you"), ensuring all His chosen ones come to repentance.
What love and mercy is there in election?
The question assumes God owes salvation to anyone. He doesn't. Romans 9:15 declares, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." That God saves any rebels is pure mercy. That He doesn't save all rebels is pure justice.
What justice is there in condemnation without opportunity?
Everyone has sinned.
Romans 3:23 states, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 6:23 adds, "The wages of sin is death." God would be perfectly just to condemn everyone. The gospel is proclaimed universally, but only those whom God regenerates respond.
What's the point of evangelism if election is true?
Because God ordained both the ends (salvation of the elect) and the means (proclamation of the gospel). Romans 10:14 asks, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" God commands us to preach; He determines who responds.
The Bottom Line
Without Christ's intervention, no one would be saved. Zero. We're all dead, blind, enslaved, and unwilling. Romans 9:16 settles it: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Every question you've raised is addressed comprehensively in my post, (https://www.theinevitabletruth.com/p/the-gift-you-didnt-choose-but-freely). I'd encourage you to read it carefully. This isn't about limiting God's love; it's about recognizing the depth of man's sin and the sovereignty of God's grace.
There is no ‘predistenation’. God already knows whether or not someone will be saved. But He wants to give those He knows will not accept Jesus an opportunity to be saved
I appreciate your passion, but you've provided zero scriptural support for your position beyond alluding to 2 Peter 3:9.
Let's be clear: God's desire that none perish doesn't mean all will be saved. A loving desire doesn't guarantee an outcome when man freely rejects God.
-John 5:40 – "Yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life."
You say election is "for the church as a group, not individuals."
That's backwards.
God doesn't elect a group and hope individuals join it. He elects individuals who then form the group.
-Romans 9:11-13 – "Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls—she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'"
Jacob and Esau. Individual election before birth.
-Acts 13:48 – "And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
Individuals appointed, then those individuals believed.
-Ephesians 1:4 – "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Paul wrote to individual believers. God didn't choose a church and wait for people to fill it. He chose specific people to be in it.
You say I'm "twisting God's character" and "spreading lies," but I've cited Scripture verse by verse. You've responded with "stop it" and "you're wrong."
That's how grade school arguments work, not adult spiritual discourse.
If I'm incorrect, show me Scripture. Point by point. Verse by verse.
-Romans 9:15-16 – "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
-Ephesians 1:4 – "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Refute these with Scripture, not accusations.
Otherwise, your opinion—however sincere—carries no weight.
So as a long time mature "elder" Christian I am familiar with all of this.. byway of Presbyterian evangelical church many years ago: leaning toward the predestination position which is supported biblically.. over and over. I will restack.. I couldn't get the PDF's but that is Ok. Have a blessed Sunday. I think there is a lot of truth .. in your excellent analysis those the verses that I was trained in while taking Evangelism Explosion by James Kennedy (Coral Ridge ministries in Florida) for six years, the foundational basis of how evangelicals and those eat the meat... having ears to hear and eyes to see.:) Praise the Lord.
I've always respected James Kennedy, his Evangelism Explosion, and Coral Ridge Presbyterian church in Coral Ridge, Florida. Thank you for your comment.
Obviously, we disagree, yet I see no verses justifying your position.
According to scripture, God does indeed choose Individuals.
Ephesians 1:4 – "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Romans 9:11-13 – "Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls—she was told...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'"
Jacob and Esau. Individuals.
Many Are Called, Few Are Chosen
Matthew 22:14 – "For many are called, but few are chosen."
If everyone is drawn equally and free will decides, then everyone should be chosen.
Yet Jesus says only a few are chosen.
Your claim of arrogance is backward.
If I chose God, I get credit for my salvation.
If God chose me, He gets all the glory.
1 Corinthians 4:7 – "What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"
Claiming my decision made the difference between me and the person who rejected Christ—that's arrogance.
Scripture Settles It
John 1:13 – Believers "were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Romans 9:16 – "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
John 6:37 – "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me."
Sorry, God decides. Scripture is unambiguous.
Then the questions that have to be asked is on what basis God choose us, if we did not choose Him?
Then on what basis did God love Jacob and hate Esau?
On what basis does the Father determine who He gives unto Jesus His Son or not?
Romans 9:15-16 – "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
The answer to all three questions is the same.
His sovereign will. His good pleasure. His glory.
Not anything in us.
Ephesians 1:5 – "He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will."
Not according to the purpose of **our** will.
His.
Then why is it written, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life”? (Jn. 3:16)
Why is it also written that God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance? (2 Pet. 3:9)?
What love and mercy is there in predestinating some to salvation and not others?
What justice is there in casting multitudes into eternal damnation without giving them opportunity to first repent?
What would be the point of even sharing the Gospel with anyone at all if it has already been decided who will be saved and who won’t be?
I appreciate these questions; they reflect genuine concerns about God's justice and character.
Let me address each one directly from Scripture.
The Problem Most Miss
Man is already condemned. John 3:18 declares, "Whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." The issue isn't God condemning innocent people; it's God mercifully saving some from the condemnation all deserve.
Man is unwilling to come to Christ.
John 5:40 states, "Yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life." Romans 3:11 affirms, "No one seeks for God." The natural man doesn't want Christ. He's dead in sin, enslaved to Satan, and hostile to God.
Answering Your Specific Questions
John 3:16 and "whosoever believes":
Yes, whoever believes will be saved. But who can believe? John 6:44 answers: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." The invitation is genuine, but apart from God's effectual call, no one accepts it.
2 Peter 3:9 and God's willingness:
Context matters. Peter writes to "those who have obtained a faith" (2 Peter 1:1)—the elect. 2 Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise to you, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." God is patient toward the elect ("you"), ensuring all His chosen ones come to repentance.
What love and mercy is there in election?
The question assumes God owes salvation to anyone. He doesn't. Romans 9:15 declares, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." That God saves any rebels is pure mercy. That He doesn't save all rebels is pure justice.
What justice is there in condemnation without opportunity?
Everyone has sinned.
Romans 3:23 states, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 6:23 adds, "The wages of sin is death." God would be perfectly just to condemn everyone. The gospel is proclaimed universally, but only those whom God regenerates respond.
What's the point of evangelism if election is true?
Because God ordained both the ends (salvation of the elect) and the means (proclamation of the gospel). Romans 10:14 asks, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" God commands us to preach; He determines who responds.
The Bottom Line
Without Christ's intervention, no one would be saved. Zero. We're all dead, blind, enslaved, and unwilling. Romans 9:16 settles it: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Every question you've raised is addressed comprehensively in my post, (https://www.theinevitabletruth.com/p/the-gift-you-didnt-choose-but-freely). I'd encourage you to read it carefully. This isn't about limiting God's love; it's about recognizing the depth of man's sin and the sovereignty of God's grace.
There is no ‘predistenation’. God already knows whether or not someone will be saved. But He wants to give those He knows will not accept Jesus an opportunity to be saved
I appreciate your passion, but you've provided zero scriptural support for your position beyond alluding to 2 Peter 3:9.
Let's be clear: God's desire that none perish doesn't mean all will be saved. A loving desire doesn't guarantee an outcome when man freely rejects God.
-John 5:40 – "Yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life."
You say election is "for the church as a group, not individuals."
That's backwards.
God doesn't elect a group and hope individuals join it. He elects individuals who then form the group.
-Romans 9:11-13 – "Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls—she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'"
Jacob and Esau. Individual election before birth.
-Acts 13:48 – "And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
Individuals appointed, then those individuals believed.
-Ephesians 1:4 – "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Paul wrote to individual believers. God didn't choose a church and wait for people to fill it. He chose specific people to be in it.
You say I'm "twisting God's character" and "spreading lies," but I've cited Scripture verse by verse. You've responded with "stop it" and "you're wrong."
That's how grade school arguments work, not adult spiritual discourse.
If I'm incorrect, show me Scripture. Point by point. Verse by verse.
-Romans 9:15-16 – "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
-Ephesians 1:4 – "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Refute these with Scripture, not accusations.
Otherwise, your opinion—however sincere—carries no weight.